index
wmn's suffrage 115
M. C. : No, not 1.1,1 would, I wouldn't be the kind that would get out and do something like that
unless I could offer a substitute, and I don't know what a substitute would be. Do you? I
really don't.
L. L. : What about, um, around the same time, what did you think about the Women's Movement
going on, like the, the SufFragist's Movement?
M. C. : Uh, uh, what going on?
L.L.The, the Suffragist's, uh, movement, like the women's right to vote
Tape 6
side A
travel/
Austria
005
M. C. : Oh, well I think they had a right to vote. Surely. Just like they have a right to work if the
want to. I think we're taking away their individual freedom if we keep it away from them.
But I think we have to learn to be learned people. We have to, uh, be acquainted with
problems and their solutions. And we had to listen to each other. And honesty, to be is
one of the greatest things we can learn, honesty in more ways than one. But those are
some of the attributes that you learn by being a good Christian. Maybe we Ie, uh, maybe
we need to learn to have prayer in the schools. And maybe we need to leam a great deal of
things we're not learning. Surely, the ab, abusiveness of people is one thing we should try
to overcome. Oh, that's it. Now what am I supposed to ask Don to get out there?
end Tape 5. side A
***please note, there is no side B to Tape 5***
M. C. : [Margaret is beginning to discuss her travels]
L. L. : K. What about Austria?
social class Oil M. C. : In Austria, I lived 5 days with an Austrian family. The gentleman of the household was
Czechoslovakia, and the mother was Austrian of, of the peasant class. There were many
things that showed the difference between the 2. He came from a much height class than
she. And that was interesting. He knew a little bit of English, she knew nothing of
English, but getting acquainted with her was very uh, very interesting.
L. L. : What year was that or...
M. C. : [couldn't make out this word] Beg your pardon.
L. L. : What year was that?
M. C. : '66
L.L.: And how did you get involved with going over there?
AKT/travel 016
education025
M. C. : I went with a group of teachers, a very small group of teachers, and we were, uh, our tour
leader was a professor from, uh, uh Poland. And, uh, uh, she had been there, and taken
many trips before. Usually students however. But this time she took members of Delta
Kappa Gamma because we went to purposefully study the economy, the industry of the
countries that we visited. And of course we're always interested in the schools, so we also
visited many of the schools. It was an opportunity of a lifetime to go in that group.
L. L. : What did you find about the schools?
M.C.: What did I find about...?
58
index
Austria034
social class 048
friends048
work068
work/social class 078
L. L. : ... the schools?
M. C. : The schools. Well, they were all different, but most all of them taught English, usually 6
years of English so that most people in most countries especially the younger people were
interested in the same things we were. But the children were eager, the high school
students especially were very eager to chat with you, find someone that was English. And
it was an interesting experience.
But the thing I liked the most was we were all parceled off to each student in this sm,
small Austrian village, and the students were so eager to have you as a guest in their home.
Now the home I was in was really, uh, a better home than most in this country, well,
village, I'll call it a village because that's all it was. And the life style of the people was so
interesting. The home I was in was a fairly large home, and it was well constructed. And
in the living room, I was amazed to find a beautiful grand piano. Now I had the living
room as a guest room, there was a, a day bed or, uh, hide-a-bed in the room, and I shared
that. And there were beautiful windows looking out.
But I was amazed when I saw the grand piano and then conversed in conversation with
the lady of the home who was of the peasant class. And it was very evident and, and,uh.
There were twin girls, 15 years old that were, what I would say were, uh, sophomore
in high school. And they knew English because they had studied English in school. And,
uh, they would laugh, of course, when my understanding wasn't the same as theirs. And,
uh the )ady of the house, the first evening, motioned to me to go to the kitchen with her.
And I went to the kitchen with her, and she motioned for me to sit down, and I sat down.
And immediately she st, went like this {Margaret makes a hand gesture where she has her
hands closed and opens up her hands up rapidly, conveying that she is counting in 10's]
projecting her fingers forward. So many times. Well, I caught on that she was telling me
age because she pointed to herself. And then she pointed at me and I knew that she wanted
to know my age. And then she was suq?rised that I was as old as I was. She was looking
evidently for someone younger. And, then she said, "Mon," and pointed to herself. Well, I
knew that that meant "man" in German, so it was the same in Austrian. And she wanted to
tell me about her husband. And so she said, "Mon, Mon." Well, that had meant that he
had been married twice; I could read that through imagining it, of course, not always
correct. But it was interesting.
And then she wanted to tell me that she did hard work. So she labored in telling me
what she did, and I could guess. And the she told me, she crossed the floor with her hand
on her back like this [Margaret places her hand on her lower back and expresses pain]
"Ung, Ung" and grunted. And I knew, not this went on all evening. And I knew then that
she was telling me that her husband had some kind of back trouble. And she wanted me to
guess what kind of trouble it was. And, uh, I did, I guessed everything until I got to
lumbago, and it was lumbago he had, so he did, he did very little work. I imagine that from
the way thing turn out.
The next morning I got up at 5 o'clock when I heard someone outside not knowing
exactly the time. And I looked out and she, the lady of the house was coming down the
road with a wheel-barrow, and it had five, uh, uh, boxes ofapricots on it. Now five, the
boxes were almost as large as out apple box,and she could hardly lift it. Now that's, uh,
where the peasant class came in. And I thought, "Goodness, why doesn't he go out and
help her to wheel the wheel-barrow." It was all she could possibly do. They got to the
gate, there was a big iron gate, and the driveway went up on a slope. And I thought well,
"Goodness, isn't he coming to her rescue; with that?" I looked down in the back garden,
and he was sitting under a tree. And she, he came down to meet her but only to open the
gate. And she wheeled the bu, that heavy load up that ramp, I guess you'd call it, or slope
into the back garden where she had been out early in the morning, she must have been out
at 4 o'clock because she was out picking apricots. That was interesting, but, you see, it
told me socially a great deal about the life pattern that they had.
Now, the twin, the 2 twin girls lived in this household. And the mother was very fond
of these girls. You could tell that she really loved them. But I presumed she was their
mother. But I learned after the second day that she was not, she was his, tw, his twins,
they belonged to her. They had, oh they had gentle ways about them, and fine mannerisms,
and very polite. And then I learned that, I wanted to know about the grand piano. Now
59
index
the girls didn't play, neither did he, and I knew this woman probably wouldn't be musically
inclined. And, but I sh, very shortly learned that the 2 girls, the mother of the 2 girls, was
his first wife. And his first wife had been a premadonna. She, uh, she was, uh, in a musical
production in France, and evidently, you see they had divorced, and he had got the 2 girls,
and lived out in this little city, and she was still in music. So that's where the girls were so
different, you see, than the mother and the whole atmosphere in the whole household. And
that's where the grand piano came in. The grand piano had been hers, not the girls'. No
that was very interesting.
L. L. : Was the family very hospitable to you?
M. C. : Oh yes, they were very hospitable, very, and, uh, uh course now th,and,and, uh, uh, when
it came to meals, their meals were so different from ours. Usually, cold cuts of meet you
had every day, uh, sometime for breakfast, uh, and uh, breads that are hard compared to
the soft things that we have. And,uh,and we never had dessert, which of course I missed
{Margaret laugh's]. It was interesting.
L. L. : [I was looking at a piece of paper that Margaret had given me listing the places she had
traveled to.] Well, I see here that I traveled to Wales.
130 M. C. : Yes, I went to Wales.
L. L. : Was that to, um, go back and see any of your family..?
133 M. C. : I went there, I went there so see my mother's cousins, and that was a rich experience, very.
Because, uh, the Welsh people believe in education. Now, uh, most of them went to
England to College.
135 And, uh my mother's cousin, the lady, was, uh, urn, a registered nurse. And by a
queer coincidence, uh, about a few years later after I returned, she came here to visit. And
she came, we came out to Ida Culver House because I was on the committee that provided
the tea for the spring tea for teachers that was held here in this dining room, not in this one
but in the one this one replaced. And that was interesting too because here I introduced
her to an elderly lady that was born in England that lived here, and it turned out that this
elderly that lived here in Seattle in this house, she was the daughter of the physician, that
was head of the hospital where my cousin had, had, uh, trained. Wasn't that interesting?
And that was a whole new story in itself. It was like this, uh, uh, article here [Margaret
points to an article in the Seattle times where there was a principle who retired and had
taken up a singing career].
Because she had been, her, her father, being the head physical of the hospital was
naturally in a class that was, I don't like to think of classes, but that's what you do when
you get in many of these foreign countries, you have to think in those terms. But, and she
had been in love with the gardener as a, as a girl, just out of college. And her father forbid
her to have anything to do with the gardener so they ran away to Canada and got married.
And she was the lady that was here. Wasn't that interesting? I thought it was.
Wales/lineage 165 L. L. : What about your trip in Wales? Did, what did you do while you were over there?
M. C. : Oh, well, uh, I, I, stayed with a cousin, and uh, course that was 2 or 3 times removed. But
they had a little 2 year old boy, and they had a nice new home, and uh, they took me
everywhere to show me, you know, the surf that rolls in, and the birds, and the castles
galore. I never saw so may castles. And, it was interesting. But wha, we traveled almost
every day I was there.
L. L. : Who did you go with?
Wales
education
lineage
E. Germany 178 M. C.I went, I went to them, to their home by myself. I split away from the group and went, and
I often did that because I was curious about certain things. And every country we visited
had something unusual about it, something that was very historical, uh, or like Eastern,
60
index #
East Germany, I got to see all of practically East Germany. And getting there was certainly
uh, an education in itself. And the sight of that barbed wire g, fence that was there, and it
look as if it, uh, had really been prepared or set up by a group of inexperienced people in
building because it was just a mass of wire to keep East Germans from coming into
Germany. .
L. L. : What year was that?
M. C. : That was the same trip to Europe, '66. But the whole, the whole uh, uh, experience was
very rich and rewarding.
L. L. : When you were in Wales, did you learn anything about your family history?
Wales/lineage 195 M. C. : Oh my family? Yes, I did. And, and I don't want, I don't like to repeat it because another
cousin says she doesn't think it's true that there was something about the Gibbons in the
family, I have it down there in, uh, and I, In, I, I was sure because of the girls, well the
cousin's that was, uh, slightly older knew quite a bit about it. And, uh, it so happened I, I,
but I wouldn't want to repeat it because it was about the, oh, oh, royalty of England being,
I could get it, when you're interested in something else I'll go get it because I know right
where this. They took me to this museum, now, uh, and, and in this museum, uh, it told
the story about, about the Gibbons, and was a part, of course, of my mother's family. That
was on her father's side.
[see slide 15 for a picture of Margaret's great-great grandmother, Jane Elias, in Wales]
L. L. : And wha, what was the story about?
M. C. : Oh the story was about, uh, the queen having given honors to, uh, John Gibbon, and, uh,
oh, I know I never even told my son about it. I think I mentioned it once when I came
back about seeing this. But I'll tell you about it later.
Morocco
social class
Hungary226
social class 233
211 L. L. : Okay. What about the other countries you visited like Morocco?
212 M. C. : Well, that was interesting, just spent a day there, and that's all you wanted. There wasn't
much there. The, the, that was poverty at its worst, and, uh, we took, uh, a boat uh, over
from Spain. And, uh we went to a veiy nice hotel, but we just rode around the country all
the time, everybody was wanting to sell you something, you know, because they were so
poor. The majority of them, now that country, other people think it's beautiful, I didn t
think it was as well as they made it out to be. But, uh, that's why so many, uh, uh, wealthy
people in our country, especially movie people that go over there, because they like it.
Wha, what they'd see in it was more than I could see, I wasn't attuned to it.
But one, the one country, history wise, that interested me more than any one, and we
spent about a week there, was Hungary. Now the story of Hungary, Hungary's had so
many wars, and the way that they'd defended themselves, and, uh, we went, oh, maybe
we'd travel t, 2 or 3 hours out into the mountains, now.
And out guide in Hungary was, uh, going out into the country, was, uh, a high school
teacher, a young man in his thirty-fif, about 35. And I will never forget him. At first he
was kind of austere. On, uh, he kept you at a distance. And, uh, you, you knew that you
were at a difference, and he wasn't, uh, warm and sociable. But later, after being with the
group for a while, he warmed up. Now at first he told us that, oh, what's the word for
birds, uh, that, that, birds that have, a, oh, that live off of other birds or animals? What do
you call it? virt, uh, virtues? No.
L. L. : Vultures?
M. C. : Vultures. He called us vultures at first, but when it came time to bid us good-bye, he
hopped on the bus, taking us to the airport, and he said, "I'd like to go along with you."
But of course he couldn't. Uh, uh, the whole tiling was very interesting.
61
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L. L. : Why uh, why did he call you a vulture, in your group?
M. C. : Well, you can just make it out the same way we did. A vulture lives off of something else.
L. L. : So he thought he was being taken advantage of.
M. C. : And, and uh, he kept us as a distance. But the way that they had, uh, uh, uh, of fortifying
themselves, they took us in these places where the military used to defend themselves by
building, uh, oh, caves and those caves went down deep, oh sometimes 50 feet into the
ground where they would pipe in air to those that were fortifying themselves in order to
help their country or save their country. It was, it was an experience when you learn how
people, what extent people will got to make war. Oh, it was very interesting to me.
Philippines 275 L. L. : Urn, what about your trip to the Philippines?
M. C. : I beg your pardon.
L. L. : What about your trip to the Philippines?
M. C. : Oh, that was equally exper, an experience because there I learned, we went out to where,
uh, the, uh, cemetery was with several thousand of our poor boys, and that was a beautiful
spot. I never saw a prettier cemetery, marble, all headstones, small marble headstones, and
the grounds were just beautiful velvet green, well cared for.
social class 288 The poverty we saw was bad although we stayed at a luxurious hotel downtown.
And, uh, uh they, it was nothing to see that a family of 6 perhaps were living in 2 rooms,
and with a lean-two kitchen, and the house up on stilts, and, and the chickens and the
animals all underneath the house, that was their roost as well as the family's. And it was, it
was very touching. Now the Philippines are a country, though, that believe in both religion
and in education. Now they say that, that, uh, uh, of course the Catholic is usu, the religion
is usually Catholic and that's wonderful.
education 310 And, uh, uh, but as far, uh, as colleges are concerned, they don't have the luxurious
edifices, but they do have, uh, education for anyone that can possible afford it. And most
of the Philippine generations today are, are more readily, uh, college people.
L. L. : Was that the same trip as the other countries?
M. C. : No.
L. L. : What was this trip for?
M. C. : No, not the English, not, not in Europe, that was another time.
L. L. : What was this trip for?
M. C. : Just, purely educational really, we were interested the country. We went to McArthur's
headquarters, we saw how the nurses had to, had to, uh, tend their patients in little huts.
And, uh, it it's very appealing when you find what our boys go through when they go to
foreign land. It's not the same as home. It's very primitive, very. But, to really to get the
meaning of, of what it is like, you have to see it. You have to be there, you have to
experience it.
L, L. : Were the people, what were the people like? Were they nice to you?
M. C. : Oh, they were always nice. If you're nice to people, usually they're nice to you. They
don't understand, of course, at first if they don't know your language, but it's easy to get
acquainted. And I always, we stayed at nice hotels, so therefore I always went down at
night and conversed with the people on duty at night. They have more time, of course, to
62
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speak to you, and they open up very readily. And, of course, they know English. So, it's
easy.
Philippines/
debate 337 L. L. : I was noticing in your yearbook from 1922 that you talked about the Philippines in one of
your, one of your debates.
M. C. : Did I.
L. L. : Um-huh.
M. C. : I can't remember it was so long ago.
L. L. : It says, um, I guess your team was talking about the Philippines, and they said that the
Philippines shouldn't be let free to create their own government. And you said, "Miss
Spaight [Margaret] brought a wealth of material to show the lack of capabilities of the
Filipino people." Do you remember studying about that?
M. C. : Oh, it's been so long ago, and I studied about so many things, I wouldn't remember. I
wouldn't remember exactly.
education
Great North
American Flu
L. L. : I thought that was interesting.
358 M. C. : I didn't even know it had that in it. I haven't look at that since 19, whatever year it is.
You get so involved, and then a little later you study more, you find out that that's so
primitive. [Margaret laughs] That's the way you'll find out then you're studying to be, to
get you doctorate. You know, you look back and think, "Did I ever do this?" [Margaret
laughs]. I don't even know what it said about me in it.
362 L. L. ; What about in, um, 1918, do you remember the Great North American Flu^?
M. C, : The Mer, North American?
L. L. : The flu^ the?
M. C. : Oh, yes.
L. L. : Could you tell me about that?
dyptheria, scarlet fever/
Black Dmnd 367 M. C.
sickness/
students
Well, I could, that was tragic, but that's not the, that's not the real one that I had was when
I was teaching in Black Diamond, and they had dyptheria, and, uh, scarlet fever. But, I, I
do remember that one because so many of our friends died. And my closest, our closest
friends, we lived next door to, in Black Diamond, when I was si, real young. And,uh, uh,
the uncle died here in Seattle, they lived on, uh, right near Broadway now, uh, right off or
Broadway on Republican Street. And he died, and his daughter who had been a Phi Beta
Kappa at the University and was teaching in high school, and she died also within a few
days. I tell you, when there's an epidemic, it's terrific. I haven't seen an epidemic since
about 1924, that was the last one, and that was the one I was caught in, and dyptheria and
scarlet fever.
391 L, L. : Did you get sick from either of those?
M. C. : Oh, when I went to school in the morning, I wondered each day how may would drop, and
the children went down like ten pins in the classroom. And I would carry the children up
to the nurses room. And, some had dyptheria and some had scarlet fever, but oh that was
sa, sad situation. And then in the end, I had it. But that, that was part of, but I haven't
see, I haven't experienced a real troublesome like that where people died right and left.
That's a sad situation. But you see, we have so many cures, so many preventatives, but
63
index
dyptheria/
quarantined
mother
you see what's happening right now with turburculosis, they are really re-opening, you
might say, are we getting careless in doing that? Or is there an infiltration, someone
coming in with it that isn't, uh, noticeable in the beginning, and they spread it? I don't
know. But I do know that it's sad, a very sad situation.
L. L. : Did you, did you lose any children, any of your students?
M. C. : Did I do what?
L. L. : Did you lose any of your children or any of your students?
M. C. : Well, they got sick.
L. L. : Do you remember any of them passing away?
M. C. : No, they didn't, but the bro, the tu, a brother, but he had not been very well, of one of the
students had passed away. Uh.
L. L. : What was it like for you?
M. C. : What was, uh, left for me?
L. L. : What was it like for you when you got sick?
431 M. C. : Well, I just got very, very ill, and at first the doctor thought that maybe it was just the flu.
But is wasn't, and I knew it.
437 And I was incoherent, and then they, my mother came up and tool care of me, and the
others had to move out of the house because there was a great big red sign on the house:
"quarantined." And, uh, until that, uh, was removed, no one could enter the house.
L. L. : How long was that up?
M. C. : Oh, I know it was at least maybe 3 or 4 weeks. 3 or 4 weeks at least. And my mother
often told me that I would ram, ramble offcoh, incoherently during the night all the time.
And I know that I didn't remember when I finally came out of it. I didn't remember what I
had done during that, the interim when I was so ill.
L. L. : When you came, when you became coherent again, did they still have the red sign up?
M. C. : I didn't get that question?
L. L. : When you became coherent...
M. C. : Oh yes.
L. L. : .. .did they still have the si, the red sign up.
M. C. : Oh yes,
L. L. : "Quarantine."
M. C. : Oh yes.
L. L. : How did that make you feel?
M. C. : Oh, uh, uh, it didn't bother me at all. I was inside anyhow, and the sign was outside. But
one of the sixth grade girls used to come get the mail every day down at the post office,
and she would lay it on the window sill for my mother to pick up. And that's the way, and,
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index
and my friends were all very supportive which they always are at any time, and they always
have been. I hope everybody has, uh [as good of friends as I have had.]...
end Tape 6. side A
Tar)e6
side B
friends
WWII
Korean War 029
002 M. C. : [Margaret is laughing about a present her friend Helen made for her]... a fancy powder
puff.
L. L. : Your friend Helen made that?
M. C. : Yes, and she had crocheted something on the back of it you know, and then put a little rose
bud on it [laugh]. It was fancy. Of course I didn't care, I didn't see any body anyway.
But it was just something she could talk about. Um, but it was interesting.
005 L. L. : Urn, I'd like to ask you about World War II.
M. C. : Now, what was that?
L. L. : I'd like to ask you about World War II. Did you
M. C. : Oh
L.L. : Did you...
M.C. : Oh yes...
L. L. : Did you know anyone fighting over there?
M. C. : Oh my, yes. I knew all kinds of, that was, all kinds of people that were over there. In fact,
uh, uh, the boy across the street and his who cousin lived not too far from us, the cousin
died. The cousin's name was Frankin. That's uh, uh, I knew several people that lost their
Uves. And one, the son of very, very close friends, I was with him the day, I was with the
family the day before he was shipped over seas, and he was a, a lieutenant, uh, and, uh, in,
in, the reserves, and so he was one of the first to go. And, shortly after he landed over
there, he went out on a mission over the Black Forest, he was shot down in his plane, and,
uh, he died. They never found his body. Isn't that queer? And that, I think that that just
killed his father. His father had been in World War I. And they were very close friends of
ours. We went over as soon as we heard that they had received the telegram. At that time,
they lived at Kirkland. And we went over to be with them that night. And I ju, can just see
the father just pacing the floor. It was very sad, but I knew many that lost their lives. And
that's one reason why I've always been veiy, uh, close to war. I know enough about it to
know the heartaches that follow it.
And then in the Korean war when my own son had to go in. He was a junior at the
University, and in 3 weeks time, he was at the front. And, uh, they didn't call them
foxholes in that period, I don't know what they called them. But, he always took it very
well because he said, he wrote home and said the thing that bothered him more than
anything was to see the little children, you know, hurdled behind a wire fence. Uh, and it
was their crying at night that bothered him.
L. L. ; How was that for you knowing that your son was over there?
M. C. : He's never, he's never mentioned it and never talked about it since he came home. But 3
times his outfit was surrounded by the Chinese Communists at Chan-Jin dam. And that
was, uh, well you just pray all night long hoping that yours will be the one that gets out
65